![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shrimpchipsssEvery now and again I think maybe I’ll write a Dreamwidth post about how people who hate Mashima Taichi don’t even hate him (or like him, for that matter) for the right reasons and then I remember that this post about how people who hate Jiang Cheng don’t even hate (or like!!!) him for the right reasons exists.
This is that post.
The thing about Mashima Taichi, much like the thing about Jiang Cheng, is that he’s not like, the best guy. He can be toxic and jealous, and he’s insecure and cringe and has tons of internalized patriarchal masculinity, and he knows it, is excruciatingly aware of it. Is embarrassed about it, all the time. He is also, like Jiang Cheng, imminently meow meowifyable.
We all know the scene where he downplays Nishida’s win and immediately feels awful about it, comes to Nishida later to apologize. I love Suetsugu and the narrative for doing that. Notice: I love the AUTHOR and the NARRATIVE for depicting it. More on this later.
But I think scenes like this are an example of how people either become part of an apologist camp (he felt bad and apologized therefore he is good and my poor little meow meow, I will disregard his complexity and flaws) or a hater camp (he lashed out so he is toxic and bad, and to go further, the narrative showing him feeling bad about it is Taichi apologism and propaganda). This caricatures things a bit but you get the idea.
A dichotomy like this sounds silly but is propped up by Taichi being trapped in a “which guy ends up with the girl” love triangle, the most interesting part of which is how completely not normal the two guys are about each other. (Have you seen the way Taichi wants Arata’s approval and how he bullies Arata as a child because Arata is paying attention to his crush Chihaya and both of their attention is not on him? Did you see the way Arata agonized over his rivalry with Taichi and whether or not he was a bad friend for wanting to beat him? The love triangle goes three ways, but of course, the fandom will fixate on the two potential het ships).
That aside, Taichi (and Arata, really) is set up to be misunderstood because of Chihayafuru fans' understanding of the story as a love triangle in which people vie for their “best boy” to win.
Which leads us to our thesis.
Some fandoms are set up for people to be at odds with each other, to need to be right due to the structure of the story (for example, a love triangle with a winning love interest). While some fandoms are set up to encourage multiple and more nuanced interpretations of the text (due to, for example, multiple realities or timelines). (credit to chris roxast for the first half of this)
Chihayafuru is a great example of a story that can be interpreted as a love triangle (hilarious, as I think it’s one of the best sports anime of all time and that the romance is secondary) which means that a large portion of the fandom will read the text looking for ways to validate their preferred ship or gathering hints of a foreshadowed endgame pairing (convo w twt user @nyan_wushi, 2023).
Scum Villain, on the other hand, is a great example of a “yes, and” fandom. The text is an meta satirical narrative that ridicules and makes fun of itself and contains multiple realities and timelines, encouraging readers to pose different interpretations of the story and to ask “what if?” over being defensive about being right (twt user @ever_and_anon).
This does not necessarily mean that people in these fandoms will be more likely to consistently and with textual backing characterize their favorite and hated blorbos, but it does make you think.
Because I think there is confusion about whether people like or dislike characters like Jiang Cheng and Taichi for the “fundamental facts of their character” or for their role in the narrative (tumblr user @whetstonefires).
A lot of the discourse from Taichi haters AND Taichi fans alike is about whether or not he “deserves” to have “gotten the girl.” (This has led to some of the most vile and vitriolic behavior I’ve seen in fandom in all my life.) The other common discourse is about his character arc being unsatisfying, which is understandable.
But these things get conflated into “Taichi doesn’t deserve to get the girl because he didn’t overcome his struggles with himself.” “Taichi doesn’t deserve to be with the girl because he experienced jealousy.” and so on. Which is a kind of take I am cautious of as it is the kind of faulty moral panic literary analysis that has become so common these days. Neither love interest “deserves” or “doesn’t deserve” anything and it’s juvenile to think that an author is always trying to make a point about deservingness or moral purity based on characters who happen to be dating at the end of a story when they are 18 years old. I think there are other really good reasons to dislike the "endgame" but this unfortunately seems to be a common school of thought.
That aside, I think what people are really frustrated about is Taichi's character growth being frustrating and unsatisfying, and it being annoying that a character whose interiority we get a front row seat to is never punished for his actions other than his own self flagellation, and the protagonist happens to ends up liking him.
But these are just things that happen to be true at the same time and not a cause and effect. The "endgame" is simply what Chihaya decided for herself on her own time. But the interpretation of Chihayafuru as a love triangle in which one boy will “win” begets an attitude that overshadows that.
Anyways.
Taichi.
For many who find themselves above the fray of meow meow fundamentalism on the one hand and demonization on the other there then remains whether or not you are satisfied with Taichi's character arc. And here's where I think some of the really interesting divergence in takes appears.
It seems that either people find the frustrating endless cycle of backtracking and doubt to be frustrating, unsatisfying character development, or to find the terrible bad unsatisfyingness to be delightful and interesting.
This occurs likely from the expectation that a character arc should be somewhat linear and that by the end of a story, a character will have worked through some of their issues and be on their way which. Is maybe the expectation of many shoujo and shounen manga readers. But this is neither the only kind of character arc to exist nor should it.
Self-doubt and being trapped in himself is one of Taichi’s defining struggles and the structure of his arc, and it’s really down to personal preference whether you find that satisfying or not, but who said that "good" character development had to be linear or make a character better? It is one thing to say "I found this character's arc unsatisfying" and "this character's arc was bad."
Regression? Now that’s what I call //interesting// character development.
Which brings me back to Scum Villain and the way some fandoms are characterized by a pursuit of interestingness over correctness. Which isn’t to say that the text is thrown out the window. I’ve found it more common to casually stumble upon more nuanced interpretations of a text in such fandoms because people aren’t as concerned about agreeing and are more open to considering different views and circulating those posts. Seeing a ship or a character they don’t care about or might even dislike and going “not my favorite hentai of pennywise but ok!” and moving along.
I’ll end with this.
Sometimes people hate or like a character for their actual character traits and actions, and sometimes people hate or like the way a character is being used by the narrative. These things get conflated and some fandoms almost provoke that conflation if popular interpretations of the structure of a story are such that people want to be right. On the other hand, the total irreverence and meta narrative of some stories cultivate a collective attitude of freewheeling speculation and theorizing where nothing is sacred and everything is up for grabs. And these things sometimes have more to do with the way fandom develops than with the original text itself.
If you haven't read it I recommend Chihayafuru (top sports animanga of all time next to Haikyuu) with all my heart, both the manga and the anime. For context on Taichi, someone said he's like if you put a Riverdale character back into the Archie comics. I wish that it was a findable retweetable tweet but it was on a private account. I think about it all the time.
If you haven't read Scum Villain and you think you'd enjoy meta satire about a bad porn webnovel, like if that sounds funny to you, you may have a good time. Also if you enjoyed reading TV Tropes as a teen. You might enjoy Scum Villain. Ok peace out would love to hear your thoughts if you want to share them!
This is that post.
The thing about Mashima Taichi, much like the thing about Jiang Cheng, is that he’s not like, the best guy. He can be toxic and jealous, and he’s insecure and cringe and has tons of internalized patriarchal masculinity, and he knows it, is excruciatingly aware of it. Is embarrassed about it, all the time. He is also, like Jiang Cheng, imminently meow meowifyable.
We all know the scene where he downplays Nishida’s win and immediately feels awful about it, comes to Nishida later to apologize. I love Suetsugu and the narrative for doing that. Notice: I love the AUTHOR and the NARRATIVE for depicting it. More on this later.
But I think scenes like this are an example of how people either become part of an apologist camp (he felt bad and apologized therefore he is good and my poor little meow meow, I will disregard his complexity and flaws) or a hater camp (he lashed out so he is toxic and bad, and to go further, the narrative showing him feeling bad about it is Taichi apologism and propaganda). This caricatures things a bit but you get the idea.
A dichotomy like this sounds silly but is propped up by Taichi being trapped in a “which guy ends up with the girl” love triangle, the most interesting part of which is how completely not normal the two guys are about each other. (Have you seen the way Taichi wants Arata’s approval and how he bullies Arata as a child because Arata is paying attention to his crush Chihaya and both of their attention is not on him? Did you see the way Arata agonized over his rivalry with Taichi and whether or not he was a bad friend for wanting to beat him? The love triangle goes three ways, but of course, the fandom will fixate on the two potential het ships).
That aside, Taichi (and Arata, really) is set up to be misunderstood because of Chihayafuru fans' understanding of the story as a love triangle in which people vie for their “best boy” to win.
Which leads us to our thesis.
Some fandoms are set up for people to be at odds with each other, to need to be right due to the structure of the story (for example, a love triangle with a winning love interest). While some fandoms are set up to encourage multiple and more nuanced interpretations of the text (due to, for example, multiple realities or timelines). (credit to chris roxast for the first half of this)
Chihayafuru is a great example of a story that can be interpreted as a love triangle (hilarious, as I think it’s one of the best sports anime of all time and that the romance is secondary) which means that a large portion of the fandom will read the text looking for ways to validate their preferred ship or gathering hints of a foreshadowed endgame pairing (convo w twt user @nyan_wushi, 2023).
Scum Villain, on the other hand, is a great example of a “yes, and” fandom. The text is an meta satirical narrative that ridicules and makes fun of itself and contains multiple realities and timelines, encouraging readers to pose different interpretations of the story and to ask “what if?” over being defensive about being right (twt user @ever_and_anon).
This does not necessarily mean that people in these fandoms will be more likely to consistently and with textual backing characterize their favorite and hated blorbos, but it does make you think.
Because I think there is confusion about whether people like or dislike characters like Jiang Cheng and Taichi for the “fundamental facts of their character” or for their role in the narrative (tumblr user @whetstonefires).
A lot of the discourse from Taichi haters AND Taichi fans alike is about whether or not he “deserves” to have “gotten the girl.” (This has led to some of the most vile and vitriolic behavior I’ve seen in fandom in all my life.) The other common discourse is about his character arc being unsatisfying, which is understandable.
But these things get conflated into “Taichi doesn’t deserve to get the girl because he didn’t overcome his struggles with himself.” “Taichi doesn’t deserve to be with the girl because he experienced jealousy.” and so on. Which is a kind of take I am cautious of as it is the kind of faulty moral panic literary analysis that has become so common these days. Neither love interest “deserves” or “doesn’t deserve” anything and it’s juvenile to think that an author is always trying to make a point about deservingness or moral purity based on characters who happen to be dating at the end of a story when they are 18 years old. I think there are other really good reasons to dislike the "endgame" but this unfortunately seems to be a common school of thought.
That aside, I think what people are really frustrated about is Taichi's character growth being frustrating and unsatisfying, and it being annoying that a character whose interiority we get a front row seat to is never punished for his actions other than his own self flagellation, and the protagonist happens to ends up liking him.
But these are just things that happen to be true at the same time and not a cause and effect. The "endgame" is simply what Chihaya decided for herself on her own time. But the interpretation of Chihayafuru as a love triangle in which one boy will “win” begets an attitude that overshadows that.
Anyways.
Taichi.
For many who find themselves above the fray of meow meow fundamentalism on the one hand and demonization on the other there then remains whether or not you are satisfied with Taichi's character arc. And here's where I think some of the really interesting divergence in takes appears.
It seems that either people find the frustrating endless cycle of backtracking and doubt to be frustrating, unsatisfying character development, or to find the terrible bad unsatisfyingness to be delightful and interesting.
This occurs likely from the expectation that a character arc should be somewhat linear and that by the end of a story, a character will have worked through some of their issues and be on their way which. Is maybe the expectation of many shoujo and shounen manga readers. But this is neither the only kind of character arc to exist nor should it.
Self-doubt and being trapped in himself is one of Taichi’s defining struggles and the structure of his arc, and it’s really down to personal preference whether you find that satisfying or not, but who said that "good" character development had to be linear or make a character better? It is one thing to say "I found this character's arc unsatisfying" and "this character's arc was bad."
Regression? Now that’s what I call //interesting// character development.
Which brings me back to Scum Villain and the way some fandoms are characterized by a pursuit of interestingness over correctness. Which isn’t to say that the text is thrown out the window. I’ve found it more common to casually stumble upon more nuanced interpretations of a text in such fandoms because people aren’t as concerned about agreeing and are more open to considering different views and circulating those posts. Seeing a ship or a character they don’t care about or might even dislike and going “not my favorite hentai of pennywise but ok!” and moving along.
I’ll end with this.
Sometimes people hate or like a character for their actual character traits and actions, and sometimes people hate or like the way a character is being used by the narrative. These things get conflated and some fandoms almost provoke that conflation if popular interpretations of the structure of a story are such that people want to be right. On the other hand, the total irreverence and meta narrative of some stories cultivate a collective attitude of freewheeling speculation and theorizing where nothing is sacred and everything is up for grabs. And these things sometimes have more to do with the way fandom develops than with the original text itself.
If you haven't read it I recommend Chihayafuru (top sports animanga of all time next to Haikyuu) with all my heart, both the manga and the anime. For context on Taichi, someone said he's like if you put a Riverdale character back into the Archie comics. I wish that it was a findable retweetable tweet but it was on a private account. I think about it all the time.
If you haven't read Scum Villain and you think you'd enjoy meta satire about a bad porn webnovel, like if that sounds funny to you, you may have a good time. Also if you enjoyed reading TV Tropes as a teen. You might enjoy Scum Villain. Ok peace out would love to hear your thoughts if you want to share them!
Re: you only love what splits you like a rotten fruit
Date: 2023-04-20 02:53 pm (UTC)i think what you said about people without purpose who want purpose is where the whole thing of needing to have a bad guy and an enemy comes from. where instead of doing the hard work of critical thinking and understanding things for yourself you just use a scapegoat instead.
I saw the musical Parade recently and it takes place in the US in the south, 50 years after the end of the civil war, and a Jewish man is wrongly accused of a horrible crime and it's about the spectacle around the court case and its aftermath. and at work the next day I was telling my coworkers about how I felt like the story was about how the south has all of this unprocessed shit and an identity crisis regarding its horrible wretched history and instead of facing itself it needs "bad guys" to crucify and be able to say we are moral and good and pure because we stand against evil! they need a scapegoat. the moral panic literary analysis!
laughing at your comment about linkedin being abyssal... linkedin is the abject...
yes i'd like to read the jiang cheng piece! could I get a link?
Re: you only love what splits you like a rotten fruit
Date: 2023-09-21 11:07 am (UTC)im coming back to this 21 weeks later. sorry. #YAOIZINE2_IS_OUT. please read it. shrimp wrote things in it.
you're spot on with that. like it's the self & the other. self = good, other = bad. simple equation that has never led to anything bad ever.
moral panic literary analysis. i read this article where the researchers realised there were similarities across civil wars & the factors precipitating them & you didn't need to be an X specialist. you just had to recognise the factors and study them rather than the country/culture specifically. humanity. but this is related to that--kind of, if you squint, lol, in the sense that people will unify across specific immutable factors irrespective of culture/country/etc because they overrode everything else. now i really want that article cos i'm abbreviating & probably damaging nuance in the process. but it's the recognition of the self vs other that people unify under. like we have to be good because i see myself in you and i can't be bad.
& oh yes! the unprocessed trauma. i'm reading a book on it & within the first 30 pages i realised why i couldn't be a mental health practitioner/psychologist/counsellor/psychiatrist/etc. it's great. no it's not. but the identity crisis goes back to 'we have to be good because i see myself in you and i can't be bad.'
thank you .. i feel so crazy abt it. linkedin is so silly!! i liked it when i wrote the comment because i wanted to poke arnd in people's business but now it is so uniformly dull that i'm like. this is shlock.
i sent u the link! on twt. a while ago. it was an eon ago. but i can reply now!
Re: you only love what splits you like a rotten fruit
Date: 2023-09-21 10:36 pm (UTC)and yes dw I got it! glad to see you replying from the futurepast though:)